03-12-10 02:13 AM - Post#91496    

In this test the 223 only penetrated 1 steel plate while the 308 went thru 2 steel plates. Even though the 308 did not penetrate all barriers compare the crater in the clay the 308 created compared to the dent the 223 made. This is why our Troops should be carring 308 rifles. You engage one threat, stop it with one shot and move to the next threat not having to repeatedly hit the first threat with multiple hits to bring it down.
The .223 is a varmint round and the FMJ version is forbidden by the game department for hunting because FMJ bullets wound rather than kill. The 308 has three times the mass of a 223. That line about being able to carry more rounds with the .223 is moot since it takes repeated multiple shots to drop a threat with the .223. I have ran into many folks who strongly support the .223 for combat but I finally lose them when I make this bet with them:
" I will bet you a weeks paycheck to paycheck that next deer season you take a 223 rifle with you and one FMJ .223 round. You shoot a deer with it behind the front shoulder through the lungs only and see if you get that deer to fall dead where you shot him. No takers yet! Not even from some who were Vietnam Vets. The .223 is a varmint round and an excellent one when a hollow point or soft point is used but would be pretty useless on varmints in FMJ bullet. The 308 FMJ is not nearly as effective as a soft point would be but it has three times the mass of a 223 round and much more foot pounds of energy. It has proven itself in past war that it stops a man with one shot. Lets stop arming our Troops with Prairy Dog guns!

See links for proof:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot24.htm

http://cnettv.cnet.com/u-troops-outgunned/97 42-1_5...


If this next video sticks or stops during playing double click a little ahead on the progress bar of the video and it will continue. It speaks of a soldier in vietnam shooting a tied goat 15 times with an M16 using FMJ bullets before the goat falls down. How many of our troops can a wounded enemy continue to kill before he is finally stopped? It should be "One Shot One Kill" and not "Spray and Pray!"

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=16578 39n&am...




Lewis




Edited by Lewis on 03-12-10 02:30 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

03-12-10 03:59 AM - Post#91504    

    In response to Lewis

Well, my friend, you're getting into a very complex topic, and you're swimming against the tide of history.

The 5.56 was adopted in VN simply because itr was so much more effective as a manstopper than the 7.62.

Realizing this to be a fact, the Russians began issueing the 5.45 to replace the 7.62 in 1974. (AK-74)

The Chinese now use a 5.8MM

So if you're right, you're smarter than all of the major armies in the world.

"Diplomacy" is the final hiding place of liars, thieves, murderers and back-stabbing cowards. Locutus

03-12-10 05:41 AM - Post#91514    

    In response to locutus

Take your 223 FMJ out next hunting season and shoot that deer behind the shoulder thru the lungs only one time and see if it drops him. That will be the proof in the pudding! If a round will not drop a fragile little whitetail deer I surely do not want to go into combat with it to defend my life and those I love with it. Maybe we should issue all our troops a 10/22 ruger with 30rd banana clips. You could carry several thousand rounds with you. After all the 223 is all about being able to carry 300 rds ammo. Probably would not drop the enemy too fast though. If that .223 FMJ was sufficient the Wildlife Commission would not forbid its use on a deer during hunting season. I'll stick with the 308 for "One Shot One Kill" not "SPRAY and PRAY". If the 223 is more of a manstopper than the 308 then the 308 has to be more of a manstopper than the 50BMG! As far as me being smarter than all the armies in the world; God gave me common sense and I use it. Perform my lttle test on that whitetail deer and let me know how it goes.

Lewis

Edited by Lewis on 03-12-10 05:52 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

03-12-10 05:50 AM - Post#91515    

    In response to Lewis

If I'm not mistaken, the .223 Remington is a shorter round than the 5.56x45mm NATO round our soldiers carry. The shorter round would mean less powder, thus less power behind the bullet. So, if I am correct, and I believe I am, then our troops don't carry the .223 Rem you are talking about into battle, either

03-12-10 05:55 AM - Post#91516    

    In response to Cowboy88

You are incorrect. The 5.56x45 and the .223 are the same and can be fired in the chambers of either. Get yourself one of each bullet and sit them side by side. You will not be able to see the difference. If you want proof go to the following links and see for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO


Lewis

Edited by Lewis on 03-12-10 06:03 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

03-12-10 08:30 AM - Post#91518    

    In response to locutus

A good friend of mine who was a Sargent in Vietnam with a group of troops under his command told me the reason he liked the 5.56x45/.223 round was that they could carry more ammo and they needed it because they would at times flush the enemy out of hiding by laying down a barrage of fire into the jungle brush to avoid ambush. I agree in this case that the smaller round had an advantage. But this friend would not take my bet on stopping a deer with the .223 FMJ bullet. He is an avid hunter and he knows that round will not properly drop a whitetail deer! There is no jungle brush in Iraq just wide open spaces or inside a building.

03-12-10 10:22 AM - Post#91522    

    In response to Lewis

The 5.56 v 7.62 debate rages on. The 5.56 is going to be here for a long time. It is more than adequate and has served this country's needs very well.

Jeffrey Mountain Perspectives

03-12-10 10:24 AM - Post#91523    

    In response to Lewis

You cannot fire a 5.56 in a rife chambered in .223 as the walls of the 5.56 case are thicker due to Mil specs.This creates higher preasures than the .223 and can be dangerous in the .223.However,you can fire a .223 in a rife chambered for 5.56.The 5.56 is slightly longer than a .223 and may not allow the bolt to fully go into battery increasing the over preasure dangers.

I won't be wronged,I won't be insulted,and I won't be laid hands on.I don't do these things to other peaple and I expect the same from them." John Wayne as John Bernard Books "The Shootist"

03-12-10 12:19 PM - Post#91529    

    In response to helorider

Lewis, if you don't know the difference between the .223 Remington and the 5.56X45MM NATO, you probably shouldn't be in this discussion.

I could write several pages about external ballistics, and field autopsy reports, etc but the information is out there in a thousand places for those who care to look.

Oh, and BTW, many states do indeed allow the .223 Remington for deer hunting. One of our moderators here is from Michigen, and his daughter has taken numerous large Michigan whitetail bucks with a .223

All clean, one shot kills.

Old wives tales and "war stories" from motor pool sergeants make for interesting banter around the campfire, but you don't learn much from them.

"Diplomacy" is the final hiding place of liars, thieves, murderers and back-stabbing cowards. Locutus

03-12-10 06:21 PM - Post#91547    

    In response to locutus

The .223 is allowed for taking deer here in CA too.

03-14-10 03:24 PM - Post#91655    

    In response to johnrunner89

texas allows it also

03-15-10 12:37 AM - Post#91667    

    In response to helorider

I stand corrected on the 5.56x45 being used in the 223 safely and vise versa. My apologies.

Info at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington

My position otherwise remains.

03-15-10 12:42 AM - Post#91668    

    In response to locutus

Check with those laws and see if they allow FMJ ammo for hunting. I never said a 223 was no good for deer period. I have a friend who uses a 220 Swift and successfully drops deer repeatedly with neck shots using soft points. Oncec again "Try shooting a deer next season behind the shoulder thru the lungs only with a FMJ bullet and see if you get the deer to fall with one shot. Then get back to me.

Lewis

Edited by Lewis on 03-15-10 12:43 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

03-15-10 05:02 AM - Post#91683    

    In response to Lewis

• Lewis Said:

Lewis, the 5.56x45MM military ball ammunition is specifically designed with a thin jacket, a smnall "air pocket" in the nose, and a very deep cannulure, to cause the jacket to rupture at the nose, de-stabilize, and break into two pieces at the cannelure, both tumbling. This causes massive wounds. The Russians do the same thing with their 5.45X39MM, 7N6 ammo.

The Hague convention forbids hollow or soft points on the battlefield. This type of bullet design allows hollow point performance, while still "technically" abiding by the Hague Convention.

Do you honestly think,(war stories aside) that any president, democrat, republican or indepedent would send american soldiers into battle with asnything less than the best equipment he cdould provide to them?????? If he did, he'd be dragged out of the White House and ripped apart.

"Diplomacy" is the final hiding place of liars, thieves, murderers and back-stabbing cowards. Locutus

03-15-10 09:35 AM - Post#91694    

    In response to locutus

I don’t remember where I read it, but I remember it as credible and not just forum fluff.

It had to do with penetration test between the 7.62, and 5.56. Out in the 1000 meter area the 5.56 was making better penetration on helmets than the 7.62. It had something to do with flight path, and angle of attack. The 7.62 had more energy, but a trajectory that wasn’t nose down per se. So it was more skipping off targets rather than punching a hole. The 5.56 did better.

On the hunting note for shooting deer with a 5.56 FMJ. Seeing how this bet couldn’t legally be done in most states. No one should ever know. Yet I do not think that an FMJ in 7.62 would do any better. A slightly larger hole if all things being equal. FMJ’s are know for “just” punching holes. In Oregon you can not hunt with an FMJ of any caliber for that reason.

BTW a deer with a hole through the lung will still die. Turns out any foreign object passing through lung tissue is a really, really bad thing for survival.

"Make your attacker advance through a wall of bullets. I may get killed with my own gun, but he's gonna have to beat me to death with it, cause it's going to be empty."

03-15-10 11:35 PM - Post#91709    

    In response to locutus

You know it is pretty pathetic that our local SWAT Teams can use whatever deadly hollow point or soft point bullet they choose to end a threat swiftly but due to the Hague Convention our Troops are limited to the FMJ which does little tissue damage. If the FMJ were so great our local Law Enforcement would be using it. Then some go about creating a deadlier politically correct FMJ bullet as you describe to stay within the Hague Convention. They need to abolish these foolish convention restrictions that cost lives. Do we really think that those we are killing in War are going to abide by a set of rules? As soon as there are no eyes on them they will commit all kinds of atrocities againt our troops. Look what the Japanese and Germans did to our troops. I am sure we did some of the same to them. When they created the Hague Convention back around 1900 while they were all agreeing to these stupid rules why did'nt they just agree to "NOT GO TO WAR? If they could honor using only FMJ ammo why could'nt they honor not going to war at all? "If this were the Hatfields and McCoys and you were a McCoy would you abide by a set of rules as the Hatfields killed off your Mom,Dad, brothers and sisters? As for me it would be "ANYTHING GOES!"

And I believe that today our Troops are merely fodder/raw mterial/expendable assets to our government to throw at some desired conflict they create and then when our Sons and Daughters come home in a Coffin we are handed a Flag and told they died for Freedom when it was some pet agenda like Iraqi Oil. Seldom will you find the sons and daughters of our leaders who start these wars in combat zones. They don't mind sacrificing my son and yours but not theirs! Why do I feel this way?
Read the following books and see. You will not find the truth on the 6:00 news anymore.

Lewis

“Intellegence Matters” by former Florida Senator/Governor Bob Graham

“The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder” by famed Criminal Prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi.

“Against All Enemies” by Washington insider Richard A. Clarke

Clarke shares his perspective on the George W. Bush administration's preparedness for, and response to, the events of September 11, 2001. Clarke, now retired after 30 years of public service, worked for several presidents, both Democrat and Republican. Often referred to as the terrorism czar before the Homeland Security Department was created, Clarke's official title, created by President Clinton, was National Coordinator for Security, Infrastructure Protection, and Counterterrorism. He was retained by the Bush administration until his retirement in 2003. In AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, Clarke provides an insider account of both the Bill Clinton and George W. Bush administrations, as well as the events of September 11, 2001, when he ran the White House situation room. He makes several charges--including that the Bush administration, in its first year, was poorly prepared and even unwilling to engage al Qaeda despite Clarke's attempts to apprise them of the threat. And he criticizes President Bush's war on terror, saying that the Bush administration has "squandered" resources by shifting the focus to Iraq, which Clarke says seems to have been a priority from the beginning. A New York Times Notable Book for 2004.


“Hubris,The Inside Story of Spin,Scandle, and the selling of the Iraq War” byNewsweek reporter Michael Isikoff and Nation writer David Corn


Edited by Lewis on 03-16-10 12:03 AM. Reason for edit: update

03-16-10 12:20 AM - Post#91712    

    In response to helorider

Message from Russian American Armory

Lewis,

You can shoot both commercial ammo or the Military ammo in the Saiga 308.

Clyde Woods
Sales & Marketing
RAAC





-----Original Message-----
From: Lewis
To: info@raacfirearms.com
Sent: Mon, Mar 15, 2010 12:50 pm
Subject: (no subject)


Is it safe to fire 308 Winchester ammo in the Saiga 308 or should one only use 7.62x51 military ammo? Please advise/

Lewis

03-16-10 02:22 AM - Post#91714    

    In response to Lewis

Yoy can fire 7.62 Nato ammo in a gun chambered for.308 but not the other way around.

I won't be wronged,I won't be insulted,and I won't be laid hands on.I don't do these things to other peaple and I expect the same from them." John Wayne as John Bernard Books "The Shootist"

03-16-10 04:41 AM - Post#91716    

    In response to Lewis

Lewis, Obviously you are upset at someone.

I doubt that any credible book will ever divulge the truth in a way that would satisfy. Considering if the books you read were true. The truth and everyone who read them usually disappear.

I once watched a youtube video that “proved” G.W. orchestrated 9/11... Absolutely laughable fader.

BTW you didn’t mention anything about what I said concerning your illegal bet on deer hunting.

As far as what ammo S.W.A.T. uses. They use ammo for what ever the situation calls for FMJs are in their arsenal too. They use soft points and other fragmental ammo sometimes when over penetration is a concern in neighborhoods. Wouldn’t want an FMJ whizzing through more walls than the ones that contain the threat now do we?

Things are much more thought out than you are giving credit.

"Make your attacker advance through a wall of bullets. I may get killed with my own gun, but he's gonna have to beat me to death with it, cause it's going to be empty."

03-16-10 04:44 AM - Post#91717    

    In response to helorider

"Jesus was wronged, he was insulted and He had hands laid on him and He was crucified to atone for our sin all that He might give eternal life to all who believe in Him." "Thank You God!

Lewis