03-14-10 04:11 AM - Post#91624    

I have been reading reviews of Sig Sauer's new p238. Many are suggesting that this pistol is a great alternative to the other pocket .380s like the L.C.P and Kel-tecs.

So, Is carrying the p238 in your pocket 'cocked and locked' like some suggest really a safe practice?

I have carried a Colt Mustang .380 for a very short period of time in my pocket but it was way too heavy for pocket carry. Also the magazine release button would become pressed in sometimes during daily carry and the magazine would fall out when the gun was drawn. I wonder if the Sig p238 would have the same problem?

So for now I use the Sig p232 for pocket carry. I like the heal mounted magazine release instead of the side one. It Also has a nice double action pull and no external safety which I like.

03-14-10 07:22 AM - Post#91631    

    In response to JohnMallory

The SIG P238 is a near carbon copy of the Colt Mustang. Also I believe that there is a recall that has been recently issued on the P238. There is a potential for the hammer to drop nad the gun discharge when taking the gun off safety. There is more info on the SIG website.

Jeffrey Mountain Perspectives

03-14-10 08:20 AM - Post#91634    

    In response to who me

Just personal opinion, but I would prefer the P232.

For those who believe in "cocked and locked" carry (I am not one of them) I would think that an IWB or SOB belt holster would be far preferable to pocket carry.

"Diplomacy" is the final hiding place of liars, thieves, murderers and back-stabbing cowards. Locutus

03-14-10 12:15 PM - Post#91645    

    In response to locutus

Locutus - you've never explained - why are you so adamantly opposed to "cocked and locked" - it is one of the safest ways to carry a pistol; the 1911 has three safeties, all must be engaged (or disengaged) for the gun to fire. My Sig P230 (similar to a Walther PP); in 7.65mm has a slide lock and a decocking lever - not much in the way of a safety.

I looked at the Sig 232's owner's manual; the gun features the following:

- Straight blowback, fixed barrel semiautomatic pistol.
- Double-Action / Single-Action or Double-Action Only.
- High contrast or SIGLITETM Night Sights in different heights.
- Patented automatic firing pin safety lock.
- Decocking lever (DA/SA only).
- Safety Intercept Notch.
- Disconnector.

I know (because my P230 is basically the same except for the slide lock) the 230 and 232 are DA/
SA with a firing pin lock but I think the 1911 is a much safer gun. They are both safe; I've never read about a 1911 or a Sig P230 or P232 suffering from spontaneous shooting without someone actually pulling the trigger...

Tim Hecht www.iwantthatknife.com

03-14-10 01:39 PM - Post#91650    

    In response to Bigdaddy

Tim,

I realize there are gun enthusiasts out there both in and out of LE that can carry a single action cocked and locked safely.

After being an instructor for 15 years, I also realize that the old 1911, "like John Wayne always carried in the war" also has a tremendous amount of "macho appeal" especially to younger, less experienced LEOs and civiians alike.

I have no heartburn at all with people like you carrying them cocked and locked. I have a lot of heartburn with inexperienced folks carrying a gun that they can just flick off the safety and 3 lbs of pressure sets it off. A car horn blowing, a tire screeching, glass breaking, etc, and BANG!

I've always liked double action for the first shot due to the long, heavy, deliberate trigger pull.

Many, perhaps most, metro police depts. had their revolvers modified to DA only 30-40 years ago specifically for this reason. You can't koch it!

After the first shot is fired, the fight's on, so single action is great! That's why I argued so vehemently with my chiefs to allow autos over our DA only revolvers.

And the old "Jeffie Cooper" argument that you can't learn to transition fron DA to SA is ludicrous.

I've done it, and I've trained over 200 other folks to do it. It's not easy (nothing worth while ever is) but it's not overly difficult either. Those like Cooper who say it can't be done were just too lazy to do it.

I carried a 1911 for a while in the military. Always chamber empty, as per regulation. It occurred to me one day that there must be a good reason for the empty chamber if ALL of our military professionals did it that way.

Years later, I realized that the empty chamkber is an added level of safety for inexperienced and nervous, very young troops.

I don't know if I've answered your question to your satisfaction, but that's my way of thinkiing on the subject. Always assume the person is not a true "gun nut" like myself, or you until they prove otherwise.

I know this discussion will go on until we transition to Phasers, but until then, I guess we all have to go with what we're comfortable with.

"Diplomacy" is the final hiding place of liars, thieves, murderers and back-stabbing cowards. Locutus

03-14-10 03:44 PM - Post#91658    

    In response to locutus

Loc - you've answered my question but I have to disagree with some parts of it..

Anyone carrying any pistol that has a trigger pull of 3# should not be carrying that pistol in a tactical situation. Less then 7# for a duty gun is an accident waiting to happen; not maybe going to happen but just a matter of when.

Comparing someone carrying a 1911 for a duty gun to John Wayne is an unfair analogy; as an instructor you should know full well that before someone carrys any firearm they should be well trained and certified (by someone trained to carry that particular gun) before they could carry that gun. At the Federal LE Academy I went to the assumption was no one knew how to shoot; so we all started with a blank score sheet and brand new Glock 17s. We shot the heck out of those guns; probably between 300 - 500 round a week, every week. We didn't shoot for qualification until the week before graduation; 11 weeks of practice.

I don't particularly agree with everything that Jeff Cooper had to say but he was a shooter and had some very good ideas (and skills) regarding his shooting but that doesn't mean I'm his minion.

I spent 30 years on active duty in the military; 4 Navy and 26 Coast Guard. During my Coast Guard career I did armed law enforcement boardings with a GI 1911 and 3 magazines; 21 rounds; without a round in the chamber. I don't know the moron who dreamed up that chambering a round constitued a warning shot but I'd like to meet and greet them for a few minutes of conversation. Especially about the night when we boarded a suspect lookout vessel that had a full auto AR15, 290 rounds of ammo, and instructions for the grenade launcher. We fished and anti personnel rifle grenade out of the drink on the way to board the boat. And I was supposed to wait for someone else to tell me when to chamber a round?

The point I want to make is I am mature and smart enough that the government authorizes me to carry a firearm to carry out my assigned duties; I know what the ramifications of carrying a cocked and locked 1911 Government; none of my carry guns have 3# triggers; and in my opinion they are very safe to carry - in the right hands.

I do agree Locutus it isn't a beginner's gun - but carrying a gun for the purpose of stopping a threat (and being paid to do that job) isn't an entry level job either!

Tim Hecht www.iwantthatknife.com

03-15-10 04:40 AM - Post#91682    

    In response to Bigdaddy

• Bigdaddy Said:

And I completely agree with that. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of state and local LEAs don't budget much for firearms training.

I can remember pulling my patrol car into truck stops to mooch used wheelweights to cast into bullets (on my own time) so that some of my officers that had an interest in learning to shoot well could get a little practice.


But the main reason that I always advise against single actions on the forum, is because most members aren't LE or military veterans, nor do they have several weeks training at Gunsite or Thunder Ranch.

The guy that spends a thousand dollars or more on a very nice, highly tuned Kimber or Wilson IPSC gun, and then has to have a buddy come over and teach him how to field strip and clean it, IMHO, probably shouldn't be carrying it in a fast draw holster, cocked and locked under his jacket.

I have fairly extensive experience with the 1911. I shot them in bullseye competition for about 10 years. I own one now, (builtc from a WW2 surplus gun by Clark) and I've owned two others in the past.

But for whatever reason, I'm still not comfortable carrying one with a round chambered.
Probably because my match guns had very light, crisp triggers.

On my "Clark" I always reach up under the slide, and hold the hammer back with my thumb before releasing the slide.

But this is one argument that will never be settled to everyone's satisfaction. So, to each his own. I guess I don't really care what anyone carries, as long as he/she is willing to accept responsibility for where every bullet impacts.

"Diplomacy" is the final hiding place of liars, thieves, murderers and back-stabbing cowards. Locutus

03-15-10 05:09 AM - Post#91685    

    In response to locutus

Good points by both you guys. I think the original question was whether cocked and locked in the pocket without a holster a safe practice.

To which I say hell no. You should NEVER carry cocked and locked without a holster that completely encloses the trigger guard so that nothing can get in there and set the gun off.

Too many people say nothing can make that gun go off but your finger. That is not true, anything in the trigger guard can make the gun go off, even through the material of your pants.

03-15-10 07:14 AM - Post#91692    

    In response to twyst

I should have been more clear. I was talking about carrying cocked and locked in the pocket inside a pocket holster. I would never carry a gun just open in the pocket.